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Appeals

 
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Bob



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Appeals Reply with quote

A question for anyone in the know,

When an appeal against revocation is held, is it in open court? As in can people sit in the public gallery and view the proceedings?
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JonathanL
Certified Gun Nut


Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 1013
Location: North East

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it is.

J.
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cybershooters
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 4589

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on what mood the court is in. I can't remember the case law off-hand but there is some on what format the court is supposed to use to deal with it, basically a judge and two magistrates and there are some rules of evidence, i.e. any evidence can be considered and the case is decided on the merits.

Whether they want to allow anyone else to be there is up to them, if you're concerned about your personal details coming out in front of strangers you can certainly point that out to the judge, given that you're talking about where you live and you own guns I'd be surprised if they didn't clear the courtroom for you if you asked.

It's not common imx for people to hang around inside Crown court, if they do the judge usually asks why they are sitting there.

Section 44 appeals are very hard to win, if you don't already know that. They can hammer you with costs as well. The problem is that you have to convince the judge and both magistrates and at least one of them is going to be anti-gun. Courts generally only deal with guns in a criminal context, so that colours their view.

Also they do not understand the complexity of firearm law, so keep it as simple as possible.
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Only three things are certain: death, taxes and stupid gun laws.
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Bob



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should add that it's not my appeal.

But there's one coming up locally I wouldn't mind sitting in on to hear how things go.
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Carrot Cruncher



Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 751

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

s.44 appeals are held in open court, and it would be unusual in the extreme for them to be held in camera. It is a principle of British justice that courts are open, unless there are exceptional reasons for it to be otherwise. As a member of the public you may sit in on the legal argument/discussions before the case proper starts. (If it were a criminal case (which an appeal isn't) you could listen to the legal argument from which the jury are excluded, if you wished.)

You just walk in, sit down and keep quiet.

You can come and go as you wish. It is best to show respect by bowing your head slightly to the Bench if the Court is in session when you enter.

You will be searched and scanned as you enter the building. I have had small key ring folding penknives confiscated, so beware.

There will be court listings all over the place, either on notice boards or screens giving details of which cases are in which court, names and times. The security people at the court entrance are usually helpful.

Take something to read - there will be all sorts of delays/ adjournments. As often as not, the full appeal is not heard in the same day that it is first covened, as many Crown Court clerks do no tinitially list the case for sufficient time; this seems to be common in my experience. Much time is spent on "Pleas and Directions" arranging the diaries of the various personalities in order to fix a day when they can all regather, and you end up going away after half a day having heard next nothing of interest.

It's all quite straightforward, and the second time you go you will feel like an expert.
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cybershooters
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carrot Cruncher wrote:
s.44 appeals are held in open court, and it would be unusual in the extreme for them to be held in camera.


It's not that unusual, it's not a criminal case, it's merely an administrative hearing, the court was cleared during one of my appeals.
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Steve.

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JonathanL
Certified Gun Nut


Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 1013
Location: North East

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cybershooters wrote:
Carrot Cruncher wrote:
s.44 appeals are held in open court, and it would be unusual in the extreme for them to be held in camera.


It's not that unusual, it's not a criminal case, it's merely an administrative hearing, the court was cleared during one of my appeals.


Out of interest, why did they do that?

J.
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I recall the police said they wanted to bring a handgun into court to show the judge and the magistrates and the judge thought that was going to be a bit dangerous so he decided it would be better to clear the court.

They were trying to illustrate some point with it, but I objected because the handgun they were talking about (something they'd held onto that had been handed in during the ban) was totally different from what I was applying for authority for. So it didn't actually happen.

Which ended in the stupidest ruling ever, which was that they couldn't determine if the firearm I wanted was of "particular aesthetic quality" without seeing it (even though I produced detailed photographs in court, but photographic evidence is not sufficient). So I ended up in a catch-22, I needed authority to get it into court, but the police wouldn't grant me the authority. Rolling Eyes

Their argument was that I could have gotten a section 5 dealer to bring it in (as it would be section 7(3)), but at that point it was overseas, so it was impossible.

This is the actual ruling of the court, but really the reason the ruling made no sense was because one of the magistrates really hated guns and it was clear from the amount of time they kept us waiting for a ruling they couldn't agree, so they came up with this daft reasoning for ruling against me.

This is the point I'm making - winning section 44 appeals is next to impossible, and if it involves any sort of technical discussion of the law you will almost certainly lose. If it's a straightfoward "they say I'm a bad guy but I'm not" sort of argument you might win.
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