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Age Required To Buy A Deac?

 
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Otto



Joined: 21 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Age Required To Buy A Deac? Reply with quote

Am I right in saying there is no legal age requirement?
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're scrap metal as far as the law is concerned, totally uncontrolled. For years I've been trying to get them put under section 21 because I think it's mad that a convicted criminal can legally buy them.

However case law is that if you fiddle with them, expect to be convicted. There's a case where someone removed a flash hider and was convicted of possession of it on appeal. Also several cases where people have removed the welds and even though the gun was still cut up and fully assembled they were convicted of possession of component parts, like the receiver.

The only slight caveat is that there have been attempts to convict people of possession of pre-89 deacs (i.e. prior to the Proof House certificate requirement) and those are generally based on the merits, i.e. how knackered the gun is. If all the main parts are sufficiently chopped up then it's generally legal.

I'm not aware of anyone prosecuted for possession of a foreign spec deac as of yet. However it is probably illegal to import them and sell them, because the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 only excludes UK-spec deacs from the prohibition of realistic imitation firearms. But a deac clearly isn't an imitation going by the dictionary so until someone is prosecuted for it, we won't know for sure.
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sassniper
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what i find crazy is that you can legally purchase any real gun ( deactivated ) you like. but you need a FAC or skirmishers certificate to buy a nylon and aluminium 6mm plastic bb firing replica? or in order to buy one legaly without the certificates you get it in two tone? now i am confused here. you can buy a real gun that doesn't shoot. but its a lot harder to buy a imitation soft air gun? crazy.
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the logic is that soft air guns were cheap and proliferating, whereas deacs are quite expensive and there is a public safety benefit in encouraging people to collect guns that don't work, rather than guns that do. As demonstrated by the odd hoarder who is caught once every once in awhile like the guy mentioned in that story in Wales about the house with the false wall.
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Otto



Joined: 21 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just reading a Home Office's Guidance on Firearms Licensing Law, Nov 2013:

Quote:
With regard to section 38 (7) of the Violent Crime
Reduction Act 2006, a de-activated firearm is also to be treated as an imitation firearm, and
by virtue of section 40 can only be bought by or sold to someone aged 18 or over.
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JonathanL
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mat wrote:
I was just reading a Home Office's Guidance on Firearms Licensing Law, Nov 2013:

Quote:
With regard to section 38 (7) of the Violent Crime
Reduction Act 2006, a de-activated firearm is also to be treated as an imitation firearm, and
by virtue of section 40 can only be bought by or sold to someone aged 18 or over.


The guidance is wrong. Section 38 specifically excludes de-activated guns from the definition of 'Realistic Imitation Firearm'.

"38Meaning of “realistic imitation firearm

(1)In sections 36 and 37 “realistic imitation firearm” means an imitation firearm which—

(a)has an appearance that is so realistic as to make it indistinguishable, for all practical purposes, from a real firearm; and

(b)is neither a de-activated firearm nor itself an antique.


"(7)In this section—

.................

“de-activated firearm” means an imitation firearm that consists in something which—

(a) was a firearm; but

(b)has been so rendered incapable of discharging a shot, bullet or other missile as no longer to be a firearm;

]

J.
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Otto



Joined: 21 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, not a realistic imitation firearm, just an imitation firearm.
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JonathanL
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mat wrote:
No, not a realistic imitation firearm, just an imitation firearm.


The guidance quotes section 38(7) which deals with 'realistic imitation firearms'. Section 38(1)(b) specifically excludes a de-ac from being one.

Subsection 7 merely defines what a de-ac is for the puirposes of section 38 - so that you know, specifcally, what to exclude.

Therefore, the 18 age limit for purchasing a RIF dosen't apply because a de-ac isn't a RIF as it has been excluded.

Whether a de-ac is an imitation firearm, as opposed to a realistic imitation firearm is anothetr matter and if it is then the HO have quoted the wrong sections of the Act. I don't think it is though.

That paragraph also refers to section 28 in relation to de-ac's but said section doesn't seem to make nay mention of them - that section relates tpo minding a gun for someone else.

J.
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been having discussions with the Home Office about some of their strange commentary about deactivated firearms, they seem to be lost without the FSS to help them.

I'd contact them and point all this out, sounds better not coming from me.
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Otto wrote:
No, not a realistic imitation firearm, just an imitation firearm.


It's not an imitation firearm either. But there's no case law. However it cannot be an imitation firearm because it's a real firearm that has been deactivated - the dictionary tells you it can't be an imitation.
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Otto



Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonathanL wrote:
The guidance quotes section 38(7) which deals with 'realistic imitation firearms'. Section 38(1)(b) specifically excludes a de-ac from being one.

Subsection 7 merely defines what a de-ac is for the puirposes of section 38 - so that you know, specifcally, what to exclude.

Therefore, the 18 age limit for purchasing a RIF dosen't apply because a de-ac isn't a RIF as it has been excluded.


Once again, not RIF, but IF.

Section 7 seems to define a deact as an IF...

Quote:
“de-activated firearm” means an imitation firearm that consists in something which—
(a)

was a firearm; but
(b)

has been so rendered incapable of discharging a shot, bullet or other missile as no longer to be a firearm;
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes but it has no meaning in regards to the age limits as section 38(7) begins with the words, "in this section", i.e. section 38. And as Jonathan points out, that definition exists in order to exclude it from the definition of a realistic imitation.

The relevant bits for an imitation firearm are section 40 which creates the offence and section 57(4) of the Firearms Act 1968, which defines an imitation firearm.

Quote:
“imitation firearm” means any thing which has the appearance of being a firearm (other than such a weapon as is mentioned in section 5(1)(b) of this Act) whether or not it is capable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile;


A deactivated firearm is not an imitation firearm. Perhaps the Home Office thinks it is but I don't think it is. It's not a thing that has the appearance of being a firearm, it is a firearm that has been deactivated. Section 8 of the 1988 Act also has a definition which says for the purposes of this Act and the principal Act it is no longer a firearm, but it doesn't then say it is an imitation, so in the absence of any concrete definition I say you go to the dictionary.

You could argue it either way in court but I think the dictionary would win.

Section 40 only makes it an offence to purchase or sell an imitation anyway, not merely possess or transfer.

AFAIK there is no case law on it.
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Otto



Joined: 21 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cybershooters wrote:
A deactivated firearm is not an imitation firearm. Perhaps the Home Office thinks it is but I don't think it is. It's not a thing that has the appearance of being a firearm, it is a firearm that has been deactivated. Section 8 of the 1988 Act also has a definition which says for the purposes of this Act and the principal Act it is no longer a firearm, but it doesn't then say it is an imitation, so in the absence of any concrete definition I say you go to the dictionary.

Dictionary for what word? Firearm or imitation?

cybershooters wrote:
Yes but it has no meaning in regards to the age limits as section 38(7) begins with the words, "in this section", i.e. section 38. And as Jonathan points out, that definition exists in order to exclude it from the definition of a realistic imitation.


Surely it states "in this section" because that's where the words deactivated firearm is used? You're saying that a deact is defined as an imitation firearm only in section 38, and does not legally apply anywhere else?

If that's the case why would they even bother putting in the words imitation firearm.

Quote:
The relevant bits for an imitation firearm are section 40 which creates the offence and section 57(4) of the Firearms Act 1968, which defines an imitation firearm.

Quote:
“imitation firearm” means any thing which has the appearance of being a firearm (other than such a weapon as is mentioned in section 5(1)(b) of this Act) whether or not it is capable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile;


That would probably include deactivated firearms then surely?

How could you argue that a deactivated firearm does not have the appearance of being a firearm?
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Otto wrote:
Dictionary for what word? Firearm or imitation?


Imitation.

Quote:
You're saying that a deact is defined as an imitation firearm only in section 38, and does not legally apply anywhere else?

If that's the case why would they even bother putting in the words imitation firearm.


Whatever it says it's only relevant in terms of section 38, which is all about realistic imitation firearms, which isn't the point at issue. It clearly says "in this section".

Quote:
How could you argue that a deactivated firearm does not have the appearance of being a firearm?


Of course it has the appearance of being a firearm but the definition says a thing that has the appearance of being a firearm. It's not an imitation, it's an actual firearm that has been deactivated. Any other way of reading it would imply a working firearm is an imitation, which is clearly nonsense, which is why I said you have to go to the dictionary.

Section 8 of the 1988 Act removes a deactivated firearm from the definition of a firearm for the purposes of that Act and the 1968 Act, but that's not the same as saying it is an imitation.

It is a bit of a grey area, my view is that a deactivated firearm is not an imitation. In the dictionary an imitation is something made to look like whatever, a deactivated firearm is not that. It's the real deal.

It would be like saying you take the engine out of a car and it then becomes an imitation car. No it's not, it's a real car with a missing engine!
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually thinking about it I've got to be right because there was a High Court case where a flash hider removed from a deactivated firearm was held to be a firearm component under section 57, so by definition it was not an imitation.

Like I said, the Home Office might take a contrary view and indeed a court might take a contrary view but what case law there is seems to agree with me.

It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever been convicted under section 19 for having a deac in a public place because it uses the words "imitation firearm" but I'm not aware of anyone appealing it to the High Court.

The CPS guidance seems to avoid addressing the issue: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/#a03
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