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Indian Webleys?

 
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NeilMac



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 981
Location: UK Midlands

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: Indian Webleys? Reply with quote

Looks very like a Webley to me:

http://fieldgunindia.gov.in/

Not cheap at 719!

Looks appealing though...

Best wishes,

Neil Mac'
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cybershooters
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 4450

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amazing what crap you can sell with prohibitive import controls in place...
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Steve.

Only three things are certain: death, taxes and stupid gun laws.
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Sixshot6



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 393

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:35 pm    Post subject: arent those Reply with quote

the pistols that were made to be aimed at women for defending themselves. Remind me why India has the restrictive imports it has? I've heard it also said very few pistol licenses exist in semi autos over 32 there and revolvers in 38? Any truth to that?
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because it's India and at one point they were verging on communism, so imports of anything from the west or foreign ownership of anything was always frowned upon, become a bit more liberal lately but still a lot of stupid rules.
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Sixshot6



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 393

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:29 pm    Post subject: Good answer I thought so Reply with quote

They've now gone from threats of Communism to Islamic extremism. Good progress. I heard a rumour a while back that one Indian factory was making new 303 enfield's. Any truth to that rumour Steve?

I once saw an Indian shooter do well in 22 rapid fire (at least he can practice in his own country). So olympic level guns must be alright at that rate.
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Rob



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 700
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Indians have one of those nonsensical laws against military calibres; thus, a .32 Webley is legal for a civilian to own, whereas a .38 is not.

I was reading recently about a round called .315 Indian, which is used in a sporterized version of the Lee Enfield for Indian hunters. It turns out it is the Austrian 8mm rimmed round used in their World War One Mannlicher M95 rifles. These were given to Italy after that war as reparations, and issued to native troops in East Africa. When the Italians were defeated there in 1941, the captured Mannlichers were sent to India to make up for a shortage of SMLEs. Hence, the 8mm round became known in India, and is used instead of .303 in their civilian Lee Enfields. Aren't gun laws great?
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Sixshot6



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 393

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:14 pm    Post subject: Good explanation Reply with quote

I thought it was something to do with military caliber restrictions. One problem I thought all hunting in India was illegal? Has something changed or has some pest control been legal always? It kind of reminds me about a conversation I had with a gun dealer in the west yorks area about Italian gun laws. He reckons the ban on some military calibers in Italy is an exercise in plausible deniability when someone gets shot in a crime (what a 9mm was used in gangland slaying, but 9mm is illegal for anyone but us). It works that well that Mafia have 9mm Uzi's and the like. Since the law states on Italian soil only Italian police and military can use regulated caliber's its why that 9x21 mm was brought into being. So off US army bases, the Bodyguards for officials could carry uzi's in 9x21mm. But as a side result civilians in italy gained an alternative to 9mm that was legal (all the glocks, berettas,etc that exist for gun owners in Italy are in this caliber).

Steve might be able to clarify the point that I made there. The same dealer also told me that an aussie relative of his covertly admitted that a number of Aussie's who had guns that became illegal have them either buried in underground storage (Australia has the most people paying for underground storage of anywhere in the Western world). I remember a point Steve once made about New south wales, a state with more people in it than Victoria (and were more relaxed gun laws pre 1996) showing as having handed in less guns post buyback. Off topic but I like to share what I hear.

On one last point, what is India's restriction on rifles, no semi autos, etc?
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Rob



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 700
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of these laws forbidding civilian ownership of military calibres are due to fear of revolution, The powers that be don't want the plebs to own guns which can use the same ammunition as their troops. Thus in the Raj, British .303 was off limits to the natives. After independence, the law was kept in force, so Indians can own a .315 SMLE but not a .303. It makes little sense, but then, if you are looking for reason or logic, the world's gun control laws are not the best place to start.

I do not know what the hunting laws are like in India, but I doubt in such a huge country it is banned, not for people with the right influence at any rate.
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Sixshot6



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:54 am    Post subject: I seem to recall Reply with quote

C&g design or someone having a 8mm manlicher enfield like you described. Well given that hunting goes off in parts of china and illegal gun ownership is said to endemic, I guess with the right influence you can do all sorts in India/China/wherever the rule of law ain't that strong (the flipside is human life is cheap I guess).

I don't try and make sense of it, it never does. I guess some will be familiar with my discussion with Steve on centrefire self loading carbines on the Isle of man, technically legal, but who know's whether you will get the authority there for one (or a pistol AR, AK or whatnot). I'm guessing you own one fo these .315 enfields yourself Rob or have seen one then?
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Rob



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 700
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, the subject of the 8mm Mannlicher/.315 Indian came up in something I was reading.

From what I can gather about hunting in India, it is legal to kill dangerous, diseased or injured animals, but not to hunt for sport. The dead beast belongs to the government. I expect this is a legacy of the socialist course India took from 1947 until the last few years, and I also doubt anyone in the more remote parts of that huge country takes any notice of it.
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Sixshot6



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 393

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:03 pm    Post subject: You're probably right about Reply with quote

The last thing you said, if China with a full gun ban (apart from storage at approved clubs and paying officials to use an AK) has rampart illegal gunownership in the countryside, I doubt India can fully police Hunting. I still can't over how inadequate they were during the Mumbai attacks? Anyone know why they were so badly prepared? Before anyone asks what is the link, the keyword is competence.
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Good explanation Reply with quote

Sixshot6 wrote:
Since the law states on Italian soil only Italian police and military can use regulated caliber's its why that 9x21 mm was brought into being.


That's not how 9x21 came about, it was invented in 1984 by IMI so they could sell the Uzi carbine in France as a Category 5 (i.e. off-ticket) firearm. The French changed the regulations a few months later to include 9x21 as a military calibre. I remember seeing one, it had a ludicrously long barrel, I think the barrel length requirement was 570mm.

However up until then the Italians had been chambering everything that was usually in 9mm in 7.65mm Para, so they then decided to chamber them all in 9x21 IMI instead.

These are the Indian gun laws: http://mha.nic.in/sites/upload_files/mha/files/arms%20act-1959.pdf

And these are the regulations: http://mha.nic.in/sites/upload_files/mha/files/pdf/TheArmsRules1962.pdf

They're based on British gun laws (unsurprisingly), only machineguns are expressly prohibited and you have to have a "good reason" to get a licence for anything other than a shotgun, air rifle or .22 rifle.

However if you look at the rules, all the stuff in Category 1 is basically prohibited (page 28 of the PDF). Which is basically anything in a military calibre and any semi-automatic firearm other than a shotgun (or a handgun listed in Category 3).
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Only three things are certain: death, taxes and stupid gun laws.


Last edited by cybershooters on Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sixshot6



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 393

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:22 pm    Post subject: Glad to have that cleared up Reply with quote

at 22 inches that barrel length is longer than the 16 inch barrel uzi carbines that IMI (now IWI) made for the US. Say how much more FPS would a 9mm round make out of a 22 inch barrel vs a 16 inch Steve? It can't do that much better due to it being a straight walled case can it?

I always thought all non military semi autos were CAT 4 in France or did I have the wrong end of the Stick? I only ask as I talked to a guy who'd bought a browning takedown, the guy who sold it moved to France and it was the one gun he couldn't take (I'm guessing he either didn't want the permit for a semi auto or didn't have the time to get the permission in time for his move).

I know about 9mm guns chambered in 7.65 luger, many youtube vids have some old American guy buy a browning hipower and find it was chambered in 7.65 luger (a grey import maybe). I know all the 45 acp pistols were chambered in 38 super (until 45 HP was created and then that was overthrown by 40 s&w, 357 sig and 45 ACP being made legal). Am I right in guessing Italy has a committee that decides what caliber's are military and civilian? I hear that 223 was illegal in the 80's there, but not now? 308 is legal but not 30-06 (and ditto 50 bmg). How does it work in that country?

So India is what I thought it was. I did find an indian forum where they talked about when stuff like 357 mag taurus revolvers were up for sale. They sell more than they ever would hear (those import restrictions again I guess).
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: Glad to have that cleared up Reply with quote

Sixshot6 wrote:
at 22 inches that barrel length is longer than the 16 inch barrel uzi carbines that IMI (now IWI) made for the US. Say how much more FPS would a 9mm round make out of a 22 inch barrel vs a 16 inch Steve? It can't do that much better due to it being a straight walled case can it?


I don't think anyone seriously planned on shooting one, they came with a dummy solid barrel that was the same length as the SMG barrel, it was more of a thing for collectors at the time. I think they were only legal without a permit for about 5 months.

Quote:
I always thought all non military semi autos were CAT 4 in France or did I have the wrong end of the Stick?


Before 1992 some of them were category 5, but anyway that system has now been scrapped and they would all be category B.

Quote:
Am I right in guessing Italy has a committee that decides what caliber's are military and civilian? I hear that 223 was illegal in the 80's there, but not now? 308 is legal but not 30-06 (and ditto 50 bmg). How does it work in that country?


Basically, certain military calibres are banned, 9mm and .50BMG being examples, I think .30-06 is also banned. They used to have something called the "National Catalogue of Common Firearms" and anything legal to have was in it and the proof house would stamp the catalogue number on the firearm. If you look at an Italian shotgun for example it will say something like CAT. 12345 on the barrel. But they scrapped it a few years ago. Now they just have an illogical list of banned calibres, which was originally thought up back in the 1940s.
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Sixshot6



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 393

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:52 am    Post subject: I see Reply with quote

A list of caliber's thought up in the 1940's. That was when they were under a certain M Mussolini. I guess that the trend I notice, a lot of these laws originating under dictators and never being repealed. I sort of knew about the defunct committee. Say what about certain 9x19 mm rifles bein legal in Italy (I do know a 9x21mm carbine version of the Steyr Aug exists though).
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