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spyr0



Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 30
Location: West Yorks

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: glowing, glowing, gone! Reply with quote

Rather interesting talking to a deer stalker a while ago, he says dont bother washing my camo with [biological?] powder because I will stick out like a sore thumb.

HUH?

He says these powders are visible on the washed clothes to deer.

Is this something anyone can corroborate or utter BS?

havent washed mine yet - starting to smell a bit ripe, so need to know!
cheers
nick


for reference
http://www.internetgunclub.com/news-articles/gundogs.php

"Humans have tri-chromatic vision, so we say we can see the “whole” spectrum. We say that dogs have di-chromatic vision, they can see only part of the spectrum. The theory is that they can probably see the blues and yellows better than the greens and reds, and this may be true, but almost certainly every animal and bird sees their own spectrum, and this has wavelengths or “colours” we cannot see. Just because dogs and deer are supposedly not good at seeing orange or red, as we know them, does not mean they cannot see other reds or variations of it. Most animals and birds appear to be able, to a greater or lesser extent, to see in or towards the infra-red end of our visible spectrum, some may see in ultra-violet. Perhaps the spectrum seen depends to some extent on the vegetation, climate and amount of sunlight in which the animal or bird spent most of its time evolving."
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NeilMac



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 981
Location: UK Midlands

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the deer are using night vision equipment and illuminate you with IR the optical brightners in most washing powders will give an increased reflection compared with fabric that's been dry cleaned. Similarly, some DPM material has similar Infra red reflectivity (IRR) to vegetation (proper military kit) and some doesn't (Cheap after market kit).

Take out the deer that are using the night vision equipment first and then follow up on the others! Laughing

I think smell and movement have more of a bearing than anything else. In the US they stalk (hunt?) in dayglo orange gear. I just wear OD.

Happy stalking,

Neil Mac'
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spyr0



Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 30
Location: West Yorks

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeilMac wrote:
Take out the deer that are using the night vision equipment first and then follow up on the others! Laughing
Happy stalking,
Neil Mac'


Cheers for that, I will keep an eye out for techie deer and blat the first to don the nv goggles.
Seriously though, is there a modicom of truth in this at all?
My kit is stiff with 'claret' and sludge, deffo needs a wash.
rgds
nick
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NeilMac



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 981
Location: UK Midlands

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I think its several stories mixed up. The stuff about optical brightners is, as far as I know, true. It certainly makes sense. It's the origin of the "bluey whiteness" that they used to go on about in adverts. Tiny little specs of silica or something that reflect light making your clothes "whiter than white". The blue bit is sky reflections I suppose. Imagine then that you are using NVGs at night and you shine an Infra red beam at someone in Military DPM clothes. The clothes are made to reflect similar levels of IR as vegetation so that he doesn't stand out. However, he's used DAZ or whatever so the optical brightners reflect the IR making him really stand out. It's the same reason that military vehicles have the Infra Red Reflective paint renewed so often.

Next story would be what do deer see? Well certainly different creatures see different parts of the spectrum. Birds can distinguish colours in ways that we can't so maybe for pigeon shooting this would mean something.

As far as I know, deer don't see colour. Even if they do, in daylight the brighteners will only make the jacket seem a bit brighter than it would otherwise. In my experience (limited with deer but considerable with other creatures) they smell you or see you move first.

If your gear is dirty - wash it. If you're still concerned with the Optical brightners then choose a washing powder that doesn't have them. Some of the older soap flakes brands don't but they won't go in the washing machine. Having said that, if your jacket is that minging you'd probably better hand wash it anyway!

Hope this is some help.

Neil


Last edited by NeilMac on Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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spyr0



Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 30
Location: West Yorks

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

minging is the word.

Probably wash when back from next stalk in a few weeks.

Use something like an unperfumed washing up liquid by hand, that might be the way to try, just incase!

In the meantime, I promise to remain downwind.
Cheers
Nick
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NeilMac



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 981
Location: UK Midlands

PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Arktis:
http://www.arktisltd.co.uk/kitcare.htm

Quote:
Webbing Materials:
Much is made of the infra-red reflective (IRR) properties of camouflage prints. IRR properties of materials are rendered less definite when smeared with grime. For example, light coloured dirt is almost certainly less IRR than the fabric that is covered by such dirt. This means that the laboratory conditions where such materials are researched and tested cannot replicate the real conditions in which fabrics are required to perform. The best overall solution is to ensure that you are not encountering an opponent equipped with IRR detection devices in either brand new off-the-shelf product or in a garment that is smeared with dirt much lighter than that of the surrounding terrain!

Furthermore, IRR materials offer little protection against thermal imaging (TI). Arktis have the ability to achieve a TI resistant level of performance. Black clips on webbing items are becoming more detectable on modern imaging equipment. Arktis have switched to mainly olive green clips where the clip is larger than 3x3cm. Many manufacturers are ignoring this point.

If, after all this, you feel compelled to clean and wash your webbing, light soapy water is the best way to go about it - with a scrubbing brush or old toothbrush for the smaller hard to get at areas.


I still wouldn't worry about the deer though!

Best wishes,

Neil Mac'
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cybershooters
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 4587

PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think too much is made of stopping reflection, because in nature most things are at least mildly reflective, and some things are very reflective, such as leaves. The objective is to blend in with the surroundings.
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Only three things are certain: death, taxes and stupid gun laws.
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NeilMac



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 981
Location: UK Midlands

PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the idea with IRR clothing/webbing/vehicle paint etc is to reflect back as much light as "typical" vegetation does. It's not necessarily to minimise the amount of reflection. Ideally, for a camouflage pattern it should be a break up pattern of different degrees of IR reflectivity to give dark and light patches. As IR night vision is monochrome this provides a similar effect to the use of different colours and tones in daylight.

Best wishes,

Neil Mac'
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