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SUSAT replacement in the works?
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Mick F
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Joined: 29 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob wrote:
Quote:
Than most of the M16 (AR15) derivatives I've fired


Interesting. It's my understanding that the M16/M4 family are now considered reliable systems, as they should be after 40 years of use. There is no inherent reason why the SA80 should be unreliable, based as it is on the AR18 design. As I understood it, the failures of the SA80 stemmed from its poor manufacture rather than any fundamental flaw in its design, so if the A2 rebuild has rectified that, then it should, in theory, work well, But better than the M16 family? As I say, interesting. Still don't like it though, too heavy and handles like a brick.

You get used to it. I can only talk about the reliability issues I have experienced and seen. The M4 was also tested in Oman against the SA80A2 and failed reliability compared to the SA80A2 IIRC.

As Steve says, that's why some have moved onto the gas piston version of the M16 series. Must admit, I like the look and declared reliability of that system and think price wise it would be a good replacement. If you can't all have SIG 550's, go for something nearly as good imv.
Cheers
Mick F
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Mick F
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cybershooters wrote:
Now they've had Daniel Defense put an aluminium forend on it which has made it even heavier.

so much easier with accesories though, for a start, no need for a new fore end, just slip the AG36 on the bottom rail.

cybershooters wrote:
The money spent on going to the A2 would have been better spent on buying something else - note the MoD didn't really disagree about the cost of buying a new weapon, their view was more to do with the amount of re-training that would have been required that would have increased the costs.

Seeing as the G36 is on issue as well (and HK53, but that's another story), I don't think this passes muster. I know what the answers have been. It's all of the accesories as well such as thousands of vehicle mounts. Seeing as many of the drills have changed over the years (gpmg manual issued in 2007, now on amendment 3), it just doesn't hold water in my view.

cybershooters wrote:
There are large numbers of the old SA80s held in reserve by the way, I can't remember the contract number H&K was hired to refurbish now but it was less than half of them. UK armed forces are much smaller now than they were when the SA80 was adopted.

Yep they're stored in a big wharehouse at ............ [deleted for security reasons] Smile as you say, only a percentage have been modified. Not sure where the others are. Gathering dust somewhere or acting as manhole covers.....
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Mick F
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I covered this here.

Like it says, the MoD basically say they can't comment about anything to do with special forces, so the fact that they don't use the SA80 and undoubtedly have organised training on other small arms which could be given to other branches is conveniently side-stepped.

I remember seeing 2 Para using C7s with M203 grenade launchers 20 years ago, and the Royal Marines have been using AR-15s since 1961.
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Rob



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Like it says, the MoD basically say they can't comment about anything to do with special forces, so the fact that they don't use the SA80 and undoubtedly have organised training on other small arms which could be given to other branches is conveniently side-stepped.


Quite. The SA80 family of weapons is absolutely fine for anyone who has no say in what they are issued with. No-one who can choose what he gets ever selects the SA80 in any of its variations, which I think says it all really.
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Libertarian_UK



Joined: 04 Mar 2010
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob wrote:
Quote:
Like it says, the MoD basically say they can't comment about anything to do with special forces, so the fact that they don't use the SA80 and undoubtedly have organised training on other small arms which could be given to other branches is conveniently side-stepped.


Quite. The SA80 family of weapons is absolutely fine for anyone who has no say in what they are issued with. No-one who can choose what he gets ever selects the SA80 in any of its variations, which I think says it all really.


As someone who has fired the L85 (pre-2001) I can tell you it's a pretty lousy weapon. I've seen them fall apart under firing, fail to reset the trigger and so on.

It does the job but is more suited to a shooting team. It's accuracy is very-good but the safety catch is poorly placed. A pain in the arse to clean properly.
Fiddly internals and parts.
When it first came out almost no country's would touch it.
I think Oman and Venezuela were the only ones who we could sell them to, even then I think a fair few were given away in the end when it's shortcomings became apparent.

The new internals have upgraded it but if I had to choose I'd take an SLR...
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Mick F
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libertarian_UK wrote:
Rob wrote:
Quote:
Like it says, the MoD basically say they can't comment about anything to do with special forces, so the fact that they don't use the SA80 and undoubtedly have organised training on other small arms which could be given to other branches is conveniently side-stepped.

Quite. The SA80 family of weapons is absolutely fine for anyone who has no say in what they are issued with. No-one who can choose what he gets ever selects the SA80 in any of its variations, which I think says it all really.

As someone who has fired the L85 (pre-2001) I can tell you it's a pretty lousy weapon. I've seen them fall apart under firing, fail to reset the trigger and so on.

And I've seen A1's and A2's perform admirably. I'd agree, with ATR's because of the volume of use, a lot of things went wrong.
Libertarian_UK wrote:
It does the job but is more suited to a shooting team. It's accuracy is very-good but the safety catch is poorly placed. A pain in the arse to clean properly.

Try cleaning an M60, then tell me about PIA's to clean. The safety catch is fine, particularly if you follow the often taught skill of using the forefinger to point along the weapon and the middle finger to depress the trigger.
Libertarian_UK wrote:
The new internals have upgraded it but if I had to choose I'd take an SLR...

Anyone who's fired something other than British Army weapons wouldn't touch either an SA80 or an SLR for that matter. Read my post on the Grendal.
Cheers
Mick F
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libertarian_UK wrote:
I think Oman and Venezuela were the only ones who we could sell them to


Venezuela never bought any to my knowledge, I think Oman trialled them but they use the AUG. Mozambique was given some and promptly broke them all, the only other country that uses it to my knowledge is Jamaica. Even they don't use the LSW.
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Rob



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Try cleaning an M60, then tell me about PIA's to clean. The safety catch is fine, particularly if you follow the often taught skill of using the forefinger to point along the weapon and the middle finger to depress the trigger.


The M60 is a notoriously poor weapon, full of faults, but two wrongs don't make a right. The fact that the M60 is rubbish doesn't make the SA80 family any better does it?
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Mick F
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob wrote:
Quote:
Try cleaning an M60, then tell me about PIA's to clean. The safety catch is fine, particularly if you follow the often taught skill of using the forefinger to point along the weapon and the middle finger to depress the trigger.

The M60 is a notoriously poor weapon, full of faults, but two wrongs don't make a right. The fact that the M60 is rubbish doesn't make the SA80 family any better does it?

No, just the point that the SA80 family is not unique in being a PITA to clean out of military firearms in use.

Now if they did this to the M240/FN MAG/GPMG ie barrel capable of taking 1600 rounds without melting ....
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Mick F
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Bob



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mick F wrote:

this


That's the first time I've ever seen someone make firing a machine gun seem boring.
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather him than me!
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