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Combat Shotgun
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Mick F
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:08 pm    Post subject: Combat Shotgun Reply with quote

Combat Shotgun
Point man issue with EOT tech sight.
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Mick F
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benelli M4 Super 90. Haven't made up my mind whether I like that gun or not.
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Rob



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see the wheel has been reinvented. What happened to the Browning Autos used in Malaya I wonder?

Also, what sort of pinheaded metric fanatic needs to translate 12 bore as 18.4mm? What in the name of arse is served by that?
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with this shotgun is the "ARGO" system, which is basically a gas assist system that the USMC insisted on when they adopted it. Benellis usually use a purely inertia system. Somehow the USMC managed to make an M1 Super 90 not work.

I know quite a lot about Benellis as I've owned several, and the only way I've found of making them not work is to bolt lots of doodads onto them and use light birdshot loads, but bear in mind I'm talking about Benellis with long barrels and long tubes, which the M4 Super 90 does not have. If the gun has more mass, it takes more recoil to get inertia going. 00 buckshot is going to work, even in a heavy Benelli.

So although the ARGO system would make sense on a Super 90 Practical that has an Aimpoint and cartridge holder etc. on it, I'm not sure what the point to it is on the M4 Super 90 and I've heard tales that it can actually cause problems. And I doubt the USMC uses birdshot anyway, so the ARGO just adds weight and bulk.

The other thing that is a bit weird is the collapsible stock, which to begin with I hated passionately, but then it did occur to me that with body armour on it does make more sense, but as collapsible stocks go it's just not that great (the stock from the M1 Super 90 will fit it).

Not owning an M4 Super 90 but having used a couple I think it's an expensive and over-engineered solution to the problem. I don't think it's a crap shotgun, just a bit of a "gun by committee" situation. I wonder if the MoD looked at the M2 Super 90 Tactical before buying it.
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Mick F
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob wrote:
I see the wheel has been reinvented. What happened to the Browning Autos used in Malaya I wonder?

Sold or scrapped. I didn't believe the former was that common, but I've seen two De Lisle's with SUIT sights on in six months, so if they were sold on......
Rob wrote:
Also, what sort of pinheaded metric fanatic needs to translate 12 bore as 18.4mm? What in the name of arse is served by that?

The law, from Europe obviously.
Cheers
Mick F
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Carrot Cruncher



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob wrote:
I see the wheel has been reinvented. What happened to the Browning Autos used in Malaya I wonder?



Browning A5's would be a bit long in the tooth now. You might as well have mentioned the Winchester 1897 Trench Broom used in 1918.

Rem 870 was used in Malaya too.
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Rob



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Browning A5's would be a bit long in the tooth now. You might as well have mentioned the Winchester 1897 Trench Broom used in 1918.


I wasn't suggesting that the Brownings would still be used, I just wondered what happened to them, and, by implication, why useful weapons like shotguns were allowed to drop out of the order of battle, when they have an obvious utility.

I'm looking forward to getting some submachine guns back. At this rate, it's bound to happen sooner or later.
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Mick F
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob wrote:
Quote:
Browning A5's would be a bit long in the tooth now. You might as well have mentioned the Winchester 1897 Trench Broom used in 1918.

I wasn't suggesting that the Brownings would still be used, I just wondered what happened to them, and, by implication, why useful weapons like shotguns were allowed to drop out of the order of battle, when they have an obvious utility.

If it's why did we get rid of the A5's and then not keep them to be used later.... Je ne comprend pas. If it's, why did we not keep shot guns in the orbat? They are, just needed updating and in the green zone they are being used a lot more, whereas most stocks are in Belize and other jungle locations.
Rob wrote:
I'm looking forward to getting some submachine guns back. At this rate, it's bound to happen sooner or later.

Why? the whole point of an SMG was automatic fire, portable and easy to carry by one man. Have you seen the kurz version of the SA80 or a C8 with short barrel?
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Mick F
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Rob



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just a bit narked with the MoD bigging itself up along the lines of: aren't we clever, we've got hold of shotguns and 7.62mm rifles. You mean like we had 50 years ago??

As for assault rifles with short barrels, don't like them. Big bang, big flash. If you want a compact full auto, it's been invented, it's called a submachine gun. No, it doesn't have the range of a full power rifle, neither does a 5.56mm with a ten inch barrel!
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mick F wrote:
The law, from Europe obviously.


Actually firearm calibre measurements are exempt from the Directive, they tried to come up with metric measurements for guns a few years ago but it went nowhere because it was silly obviously, because many calibre designations are just names, not measurements. So they're exempt because they're names, was the final outcome, iirc.
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob wrote:
I'm just a bit narked with the MoD bigging itself up along the lines of: aren't we clever, we've got hold of shotguns and 7.62mm rifles. You mean like we had 50 years ago??


Different weapons adopted for different theatres of war, what goes around comes around, depending on where you're fighting. In fairness an LMT 7.62 is substantially more accurate than an SLR, you couldn't use an SLR as a DMR in Afghanistan.

Quote:
As for assault rifles with short barrels, don't like them. Big bang, big flash. If you want a compact full auto, it's been invented, it's called a submachine gun.


I don't like them either, they're good for what they were designed for, i.e. CQB, provided you're wearing some serious ear protection but a lot of them now are just being issued because they're compact. There are compact guns with decent barrel lengths, e.g. the Swiss Arms SG551, the AUG, G36 and so on.

I have to say excessively small guns is one of my pet peeves, I remember when the Glock 26 and 27 came out and everyone started buying them instead of the 19 and 23 for concealed carry. The 19 and 23 aren't that hard to conceal and are easier to shoot. I'm sure there are plenty of people who need a 26 and a 27, but not as many as have them.
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Mick F
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cybershooters wrote:
Mick F wrote:
The law, from Europe obviously.

Actually firearm calibre measurements are exempt from the Directive, they tried to come up with metric measurements for guns a few years ago but it went nowhere because it was silly obviously, because many calibre designations are just names, not measurements. So they're exempt because they're names, was the final outcome, iirc.

I know that, but does the MoD?
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Mick F
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Mick F
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob wrote:
As for assault rifles with short barrels, don't like them. Big bang, big flash. If you want a compact full auto, it's been invented, it's called a submachine gun. No, it doesn't have the range of a full power rifle, neither does a 5.56mm with a ten inch barrel!

But substantially more than a pistol cartridge
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Mick F
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Carrot Cruncher



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mick F wrote:

If it's why did we get rid of the A5's and then not keep them to be used later.... Je ne comprend pas. If it's, why did we not keep shot guns in the orbat? They are, just needed updating and in the green zone they are being used a lot more, whereas most stocks are in Belize and other jungle locations.
Mick F


A5's were available in the mid-50's in Malaya, but the gun is very far from being an ideal combat weapon. Too long for starters, and attempts were maded to cut the barrels down, but that always causes problems with a semi-auto. And come to think of it, they weren't all semi-autos. There was an in-theatre modification to make them full auto, but that meant the first round was more or less on target but the rest went up to the canopy. Holding them sideways when shooting helped, so that the muzzle lift would help with a lateral sweep, but a right handed man would instinctively hold it with the ejection port upwards which caused problems. The ammunition - nearly all cardboard bodied in those days - tended to swell in the conditions so that there were feed problems. And to add to it all, low mag capacity and slow reloading.

The A5 is a wonderful gun with a fascinating history - it formed the genesis of the link between J M Browning and FN - but it was made for a purpose and combat use in jungles wasn't it.

A propos of which - Mr F might know the answer - I hear that the Met are looking for a box mag s/auto shotgun ?
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Mick F
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carrot Cruncher wrote:
A propos of which - Mr F might know the answer - I hear that the Met are looking for a box mag s/auto shotgun ?

Are they? I don't know. Most Forces seem happy with pumps or semi-auto's to remove hinges etc imx. The web can't even say whether they use Rem 870's or Benelli M3's.
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Mick F
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