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French armed forces to replace FA MAS
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:20 pm    Post subject: French armed forces to replace FA MAS Reply with quote

Article.

I think the UK has some spare SA80s knocking around...

Apparently the main reason they're doing it is that the delayed blowback system of the FA MAS can occasionally rip off the casehead of certain makes of 5.56mm ammunition. And the French don't make their own ammunition anymore either.

Kind of a shame because I always thought it was really clever not having a gas system, the only other one in common use I can think of are the old H&K roller-locking rifles.

Plus unlike the SA80 it's light weight and well-balanced.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:24 pm    Post subject: Is that the same French Army Reply with quote

That sadly like the British Army has no facilities to make a new small arm now? One of my Cousins friends called French Dave (called so due to him being called Dave and being French), when he was in the French Army, his job was the sit there and empty magazines of ammo through FAMAS's simply to keep their quota of ammo the same for the next year. I know things get bad in the British Army but never that bad. Any truth to that?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know someone who served in Afghanistan with the French and he said the same thing, they have a quota of ammunition and they have to keep track of every round fired.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:54 pm    Post subject: I think a a quota Reply with quote

for vehicle fuel exists too, so they have to put the foot down in the vehicles and go through the allowance to keep it up. Any takers for FAMAS replacement? My money is on the HK416. Reasons are, its made in an EU country, its an AR and unlike most military AR's is a Gas Piston short stroke so its shooting a bit cleaner than standard DI AR's. This is the supreme Irony of the AR18/AR180. It was basically that in the 70's and served as the basis for the SA80 and so many other guns. Did you ever get to shoot one of the Sterling AR180's at all? Any good?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They won't use the 416, too expensive. G36 maybe.

I have used an AR180, I don't recall it being particularly amazing. It went bang. The one thing I do remember is that the magazines are not the same as the AR-15.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:11 am    Post subject: But Reply with quote

didnt the G36 have some ammo related issues? And I hear you on the price, they sell a semi auto version in some parts of the world, in the US nearly 2k for a ar when a smith and wesson M&P15 sport can go for $699, I can think what most US gunowners will say to that. You're right it didn't take AR mags, I know the current Armalite company, made a new one for a while that took AR mags, the Canadians loved it as it was to them a non-restricted well priced AR alternative (I know about or Aboot Canadian gun laws). I think they stopped making them due to a combo of not being able to keep up production and it competing with their own AR's. They also called it the Ar180B as in some US states and Canada the original is banned by name, but the AR180B wasn't. Apparently they thought about bringing it back, but nothing has happened. So what other alternatives are out there besides the G36? Also did any of those straight pull R8's get sold in this country or after the Australian Debacle did they just give up?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well there are heaps of different 5.56mm rifles, there's the Beretta ARX100, FN F2000, FN SCAR, etc. Whatever it will be, it will be something current, not something old like the AR-180. Some plastic fantastic gizmo that's probably no better than an AR-15. Unless, of course, it is an AR-15. Laughing

Quote:
They also called it the Ar180B as in some US states and Canada the original is banned by name, but the AR180B wasn't


Supposedly. Although it now turns out that the dealers importing various semi-automatic rifles may have misled RCMP as to what it was they were importing. Regulations.

Quote:
65. The firearm of the design commonly known as the Armalite AR-180 Sporter carbine, and any variant or modified version of it.


Since 2009, RCMP have started requiring dealers to submit samples before classifying the gun... so perhaps that's why it hasn't reappeared on the market.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:17 pm    Post subject: I've talked with Reply with quote

some Canucks about the misleading rifle. It was a Swiss Classic arms rifle that was supposed to be based on the earlier Sig 540, but it was based on a Sig 550 which is banned but the 540's arent (there are some Famae clones from Chile being imported of the 540 and 541). This Canadian fella I was talking to on the firearm blog said he actually questioned a fella with one as the manual was for a 550. The whole thing actually led to a parliamentary debate in Canada about whether the RCMP had overstepped the mark to be. There is an issue with CZ VZ 858's too. Some post 2007 versions can apparently be made semi auto easily (I'm not sure how they define, basic working knowledge I guess). The CSA variants are ok there too.

So the issue as you mentioned was being the same as a banned variant and semi auto to full auto conversion ease. I didn't think for a minute the AR18 would be adopted by the french but so many of the guns you mentioned the internals are based on it. And as you said, no better than an AR. Is it just me or is the defense strategies of the west only just recovering from the cold war?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:25 pm    Post subject: And one more thing Reply with quote

you could be right about that with the AR180's. But the be's are still out and about (or aboot for Canada) and have not been reclassified. Yet. Maybe actually taking AR mags instead of its own like the originals is enough of a difference.
Also I think its more to do with Armalite's main market. The US. They'll make more money making AR15's and 10's than they would making something that the Canadians would like as they can shoot on land they own or have permission to, rather than as a range/IPSC queen. And its not like they don't know. Armalite even acknowledges that a tonne of Canadian gun owners ask them about reintroducing it.

It goes back to the conversation I had with this Canadian fella. A lot of what companies like Norinco sell in Canada is leftovers from other order (Police 1911's that were made for Filipino police departments or AR's and M14 semi autos made on tooling they were using to supply communist insurgencies in Asia that they gave up on trying to do).

Also see Kel tec with them supplying an SU16 variant with the words .223 Remington instead of 5.56 nato due to the ITAR regs (I see Norinco type 97 bullpups with 5.56 on the receiver in Canada, but I doubt China is signed up to most of ITAR anyway).

Its basic economics to be fair, sell what you can make money out of for little effort. Or find a company that can do orders at the scale you want. CSA is great in that regard as they can orders of 10 at a time or so for Caladonian classic arms of the MARS rifle I have.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The story about guns being left over from being supplied to the Filipinos is a myth. Norinco has made a ton of stuff and it's all for export, perhaps some of them ended up in the hands of Filipino insurgents but I've never heard of one being recovered, they're all guns captured from the Philippine Army. The Chinese just like to copy things.

What happened in Canada prior to 2009 is that some importers submitted a verification form to RCMP saying gun X was not a prohibited firearm and RCMP never checked. The Swiss Arms rifles are SG550s and SG551s (not variants, they are the actual thing with a different name stamped on them) and were verified as SG540s by the importer, for example.

Since 2009 RCMP requires a a sample of all semi-auto rifles that an importer wants to import to be submitted for verification by forensics.

If you look at those regulations, they have to be the most poorly worded legislation I've ever seen.

For example the AR-10 isn't listed, but RCMP always consider anything but an original AR-10 to be a variant of an AR-15, thus restricted, but there are two types of AR-15 pistol there (i.e. a variant) listed as prohibited. So what is the gun you may have a variant of, a rifle or a pistol? You'd have to be psychic to know.

There is no clear technical standard for a "variant", RCMP often use the brochures. It's all a bit of a joke really.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:43 am    Post subject: hmm Reply with quote

But I see AR15 pistols do go on sale in Canada, thats why those LAR15 223 pistol mags wen't on sale and gave canucks 10 round mags for anything that takes a 223 ar mag. I know they have the Beowulf mags now. I do notice they have a hard time getting the alexander arms mags (I know the polymer ones are CCA mags restamped to say 50 beowulf instead of 223). Its a cleaver trick. When I ordered something off Midway I noticed that for a while they had some GI 50 beowulf mags including the 10 rounders that people seemed to order with Magpul followers. They havent had the mags for while, I don't know if its due to some weird policy midway uk has about not selling mags above 10 rounds (though they stock a kit to turn a 30 round p mag into a 42 rounder). And realised you could put 18-21 rounds of 223 in a 7 round mag and 30 in a 10 rounder.

I heard that the problem was with Alexander arms actually taking issue using the mags that why? I know the Canucks have had to make their own mags that are '5' round beowulfs (but can hold 14-15 rounds of 223). And its not an issue here (I can get E mags and the like no problem). But would Alexander arms really take that issue Steve).

And yes, the Canadian regulations (some of which are not actual law from what I can see but what the RCMP enforce) are ridiculous. Worse than here and Canada though is Australia. They could'nt even get the Troy industries PAR rifle there due to it looking a bit like an AR (though the customs acknowledged barely any of the parts were interchangeable).
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't make sense of the AR-15 pistol situation in Canada. And neither can RCMP it seems to me. The RRA 10-round magazines are legal because they've got "pistol" stamped on them, thus "designed for" a pistol, thus subject to the ten-round limit (as opposed to the 5-round limit). The fact that many types of AR-15 pistol are prohibited is irrelevant, they could all be banned and the magazines would still be legal.

So then people say the .50 Beowulf 5-round magazines are legal and you can put 18 rounds of .223 in them. At the end of the day it depends on what a court says.

The regulations are very vague. For example, someone thought about making a .50 Beowulf pistol, thus a ten-round limit on the magazines, but the regulations say if the handgun is not "commonly available" then there is a 5-round limit. What does: "commonly available" mean? No-one knows. What is a "variant" of an XM231S pistol? To me that means any AR-15 pistol using direct gas impingement, but it's not clear.

Anyway there is a reason I chose my tagline.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:26 am    Post subject: I hear you there Reply with quote

strangely though, one Canadian guy got a VZ58 pistol imported from the US and some mags from Israel (Zahal.org) stamped VZ58 pistol and his appears to be the only one in Canada. He states he got the impression that commonly available could mean only one pistol or one gun was in Canada (as far as anyone knows those limited runs of original AR10's only 2 are in Canada right now).

The guy in question is TV Press pass Canada, this guy http://tv-presspass.com/the-importance-of-50-beowulf-magazines/. He mentions what the IPSC and IDPA guys found with some 40 s&w mags/.357 sig mags being able to hold 12-14 rounds of 9mm and they asked the RCMP about and they issued the bulletin. Although they don't make the law, I guess it would be used in court to determine something. I also guess the 10 round 50 beowulf pistol mags would be a bridge to cross later. I wish them luck in that endeavor.

Also Steve a rumour is doing the rounds that Low mills range (Peter Hathaway-Jones) is planning to through their hat in the ring with a AR like southern gun company to compete with them and Caledonian Classic arms. Any truth to the rumours and if it was a lever release how could they work round the possibility that both Bob Clarke and Scott Rodgers may very well have patents on how their actions don't go full fat semi auto?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:44 pm    Post subject: Oh and one more thing on the commonly available Reply with quote

Mossberg have a not very good 22 rifle dressed up as an ar for sale. They made a pistol version and as far as I know they havent sold any in Canada, but just the existence of a pistol version led to someone to ask the RCMP advice on what to do with their mags, the advice they got was they would have to dispose of their mags above 10 and mossberg canada offered free replacements to people. That actually contradicted what they said earlier. Regardless just something existing now seems to be the RCMP's definition of 'readily available'. Don't you like Goal posting shifting bang head on wall
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if you have a poke around his website he's got a copy of the RCMP forensic report on the Swiss Arms rifles. On page 4 it says Swiss Arms sent them an e-mail saying the receiver of the Blue Star was different from the SG550 SP, hence their classification decision. Which is not true, they have the same receiver. Hence their decision to reclassify them, once they finally figured it out, 12 years later.

RCMP are a law unto themselves, I can think of various guns that have been classified in a way that makes no sense to me, possibly because the importer/manufacturer misled them. For example the Walther G22 was classified as prohibited because it has a bullpup stock (accessory bullpup stocks are illegal but not integral stocks) but the Tavor, FN FS2000 etc. are all non-restricted.

Quote:
Also Steve a rumour is doing the rounds that Low mills range (Peter Hathaway-Jones) is planning to through their hat in the ring with a AR like southern gun company to compete with them and Caledonian Classic arms. Any truth to the rumours and if it was a lever release how could they work round the possibility that both Bob Clarke and Scott Rodgers may very well have patents on how their actions don't go full fat semi auto?


No clue, haven't spoken to him for at least ten years.
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