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50 shot dead in New Zealand

 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:02 am    Post subject: 50 shot dead in New Zealand Reply with quote

Article.

Followed by an almost kneejerk reaction that "gun laws will change".

Apparently he had a regular category A firearm licence and owned two semi-auto rifles and a semi-auto shotgun. At least one of them was a sporter version of an AR-15. Those guns are restricted to a seven-round magazine in New Zealand, but he clearly had a large number of magazines, pictures show three 30-round Magpul magazines, one 40-round Magpul magazine and a Magpul drum. You can legally have them in New Zealand but you can't legally use them (unless you have a cat. E licence), but I have my doubts that anyone was selling a 90-round drum given the legalities surrounding them.

There have been calls for awhile now to amend the MSSA regulations to put those guns into Category E (the most restrictive category, you have to be a member of a gun club, guns are registered and imports are heavily restricted).

What they'll do now is unclear, but safe bet that centrefire semi-auto rifles will go to Cat. E at a bare minimum, at least the ones with detachable magazines and there will be some sort of general import ban as well. Given the number of SKSes floating around that are unregistered, a general ban would be difficult to pull off. Perhaps they'll try introducing gun registration again.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An article that actually contains more information, rather than hand-wringing.

So essentially they're going to have new gun laws and then have a public inquiry? Bit of an odd way of doing it.
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Sixshot6



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/mar/21/new-zealand-shooting-jacinda-ardern-to-make-policy-announcement-live-updates

How are they going to define detachable mag and does that mean fixed mag over 5 is ok?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the actual statement.

The Order-In-Council basically says any centrefire semi-auto long gun that uses a detachable magazine which can accept a magazine that holds more than 5 rounds goes to category E.

There are two enormous flaws in what has been said so far, the first is that she said the police will refuse any applications for a category E licence, which is illegal, the second is that the overwhelming bulk of semi-auto centrefire rifles in New Zealand are things like the SKS and M1 Garand and that statement says nothing about them. So .22s and shotguns won't be banned, but centrefires with detachable magazines will be banned - what about centrefires with non-detachable magazines? Also she said all the guns the guy used would be banned, which is technically true but one of the guns he used was a semi-auto shotgun with a tubular magazine, I assume it had more than a 5-round magazine.

Anyway, long and short of it, even if they do ban everything to the maximum extent of what they're implying, the gun laws will still be less restrictive than the UK and Australia by a fair margin.

I suspect at the end of the day centrefire semi-auto rifles with a fixed magazine holding 5 rounds or less will remain legal, at least the ones without "military features" like a pistol grip stock. They're not currently registered, so given the numbers in circulation it would be hard to do, note they're also not saying they're going to introduce gun registration either. I think the current magazine limits are 7 rounds for centrefire semi-autos and 15 for .22 rimfires, so expect to see some push back on that as well, as moving the pins from 7 to 5 rounds on a hundred thousand guns is a bit pointless.

I always think it's really stupid when you have different magazine capacity limits for different guns, it's been a total nightmare in Canada. Just set it to whatever number and do it for all of the affected guns.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed them asking people to hand in "hi capacity magazines" don't touch on what happens if you have manual op rifle that uses them, Just AR mags alone can fit in bolt actions, pump actions, etc.......
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Licencing procedure not followed correctly, says former arms officer.

Hmm.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sixshot6 wrote:
I noticed them asking people to hand in "hi capacity magazines" don't touch on what happens if you have manual op rifle that uses them, Just AR mags alone can fit in bolt actions, pump actions, etc.......


How it works in Canada is if the magazine is "designed for" a semi-auto, then the mag limit applies. I get the strong impression they've had a whip round the gun laws in similar countries and chosen Canada to base these new proposals on. Except it is possible in Canada to own some limited types of military-style semi-auto long gun.

We'll know for sure if they also include a ten-round limit for pistols. There already is a 100mm barrel limit for handguns held for target shooting, in Canada the limit is 105mm.

As I said, the problem with these limits is that you can fiddle about with them, for example you can get a shotgun chambered for 3.5" shells and the tube usually holds seven 2.75" shells for example. There are .40 calibre pistol magazines that will hold 12 or 13 rounds of 9mm without modification.

The best example is probably the .50 Beowulf 5-round magazine, which holds 18 rounds of 5.56mm. It's very hard to police, really. Say you ban all semi-auto and gas-operated AR-15s, then I have no doubt someone will start selling a pump-action AR-15 and you can use the .50 magazines with it.

There's also the issue of gun collectors, because machineguns are still legal in New Zealand if they're held by collectors, but they have to be kept disassembled.

In Australia they have this fluffy ban on anything that is "military-style" which is a subjective decision, even in Australia I'm not sure that will hold up in court but in New Zealand I'm sure it will be challenged.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a completely ridiculous article.

Speedloaders! Shocked

Quote:
"What we say is we need more detail in order to make a more considered position, [and] a thorough investigation so we can see what went so terribly wrong."

The head of the NZ Police Association, Chris Cahill, says that's a standard stalling tactic of the gun lobby.


Yes, because we wouldn't want things like: "facts" and "democracy" to get in the way, would we?

Quote:
Mr Cahill says the NRA's fingerprints have been on the previous successful campaigns to stop gun law reforms in New Zealand.

"We certainly know that NRA representatives have previously visited New Zealand," he said.


Do we? Bit of a vague assertion, basically an attempt to undermine gun owners by saying their own opinion is not legitimate.

And of course, Mr Cahill of the NZ Police Association wouldn't want anyone to spend any time looking at any potential screw-ups the police made in the licencing procedure, would he?
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Sixshot6



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cybershooters wrote:
Sixshot6 wrote:
I noticed them asking people to hand in "hi capacity magazines" don't touch on what happens if you have manual op rifle that uses them, Just AR mags alone can fit in bolt actions, pump actions, etc.......


How it works in Canada is if the magazine is "designed for" a semi-auto, then the mag limit applies. I get the strong impression they've had a whip round the gun laws in similar countries and chosen Canada to base these new proposals on. Except it is possible in Canada to own some limited types of military-style semi-auto long gun.

We'll know for sure if they also include a ten-round limit for pistols. There already is a 100mm barrel limit for handguns held for target shooting, in Canada the limit is 105mm.

As I said, the problem with these limits is that you can fiddle about with them, for example you can get a shotgun chambered for 3.5" shells and the tube usually holds seven 2.75" shells for example. There are .40 calibre pistol magazines that will hold 12 or 13 rounds of 9mm without modification.

The best example is probably the .50 Beowulf 5-round magazine, which holds 18 rounds of 5.56mm. It's very hard to police, really. Say you ban all semi-auto and gas-operated AR-15s, then I have no doubt someone will start selling a pump-action AR-15 and you can use the .50 magazines with it.

There's also the issue of gun collectors, because machineguns are still legal in New Zealand if they're held by collectors, but they have to be kept disassembled.

In Australia they have this fluffy ban on anything that is "military-style" which is a subjective decision, even in Australia I'm not sure that will hold up in court but in New Zealand I'm sure it will be challenged.


at least one dealer called burley arms on facebook when asked about bringing in Troy Pars again he said they were looking about classifying pump action centrefires that can hold more than 5 as semi auto but he does have a video on youtube talking about his dissatisfaction with dealing with TROY so there is that in it.....I did find at least one dealer that is still selling SKS's with a fixed 5 round mag unless they didn't update their site? Its all up in the air I could guess from there, they're going to have court cases for this order in council that apparently expires after a year unless any new legislation is passed.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2019/0125/latest/d9580345e2.html

What the legislation will look like, does this mean they can have Pump action ar's? It restricts rifle mags to 10 rounds, does it do the same to pistol mags or are they included capped to 10 too? I noticed the rimfire bit says 22 and less, meaning 17hmr and 17wsm semi autos are going to become a thing.

Franklin armory are going to have kiwi's enquiring about importing their 17wsm ar.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sixshot6 wrote:
Franklin armory are going to have kiwi's enquiring about importing their 17wsm ar.


No they won't because military-style semi-automatics are prohibited under this Bill (and already heavily regulated), .22 or otherwise and they're clearly going to widen the definition of an MSSA based on the new definition of a "firearm part".

I'm going to close this thread because I've started another more relevant one here: https://www.cybershooters.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2558
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