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Antique Firearms

 
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sanchez



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Antique Firearms Reply with quote

Just thinking about antiques in light of the recent case and came across this link as a guide from Devon & Cornwall. It's not strictly true is it, or a bit 'wooly'? They say nothing about some centre-fire pistols being classed as antiques due to having obsolete calibers.


http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/v3/about/departm/firearms/faqs.htm#2

Interested as I could quite get into collecting antique firearms, though not if it's going to bring an early morning 'knock'!
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cybershooters
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 4587

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that FAQ is total nonsense because even the HO has been saying for years that centrefire calibres are okay if they are obsolete. This is why I never really understood the guidance they gave for section 7(1), which appeared to contradict their other guidance.

If Mick's Luger has been held to be an antique firearm, then that ruling essentially renders section 7(1) pretty much obsolete, and if it doesn't, then the progress of time will in about twelve years.

However I expect the HO will now go into a tizzy and come up with some stupid amendment to the Act which gives legal force to their guidance, which we will have to fight tooth and nail because it will mean loads of people who have antiques will find themselves in possession of prohibited weapons.
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Steve.

Only three things are certain: death, taxes and stupid gun laws.
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sanchez



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been thinking more and more about this. I'm off back to Houston for a few weeks and quite fancy the idea of beginning a collection. However, Home Office advice asides Rolling Eyes , I'm not sure where to begin. Obviously I have to find a dealer who can export to the UK, but does anyone have any advice as to what I should be looking for that will be collectible/rare/hold value in terms of age, manufacturer, caliber, firearm type etc????

All advice welcome!
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Carrot Cruncher



Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 751

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HO Guidance says that if a genuinely old gun is chambered for an obsolete CF cartridge, as per their list, then it can be called an antique. That Devon FAQ is misleading because it says if an old gun is "capable of firing a modern cf cartridge . . . . .".
It's not the same thing. Just because it might be possible to find a modern round which will fit and fire safely from an old, different chambering, doesn't make the old gun any less antique (so long as you don't actually do it !) .310 Greener (on the obsolete list) and .32-20 WCF is a case which comes immediately to mind. Devon advice is thus at odds with HO Guidance. Who knows whether this is deliberate, or simply their misunderstanding, or just poor drafting? Whoever wrote it forgot the "keep it simple" rule, with all that unnecessary guff about dictionary definitions. Whatever, they need to be put right.

The s.7(1) rules are quite different, and should not be confused or conflated with s.58(2) rules. Amongst other things, the references are to "less commonly available" pistol chamberings rather than obsolete ones. Make of that what you will !

I don't know enough aboout Mick Shepherd's case, but I think it is unwise to draw any conclusion from a photograph in a BBC report. Even if a jury did decide, in his case, that a 7.65 Para Luger - or even 9mm - could benefit from s.58(2), it wouldn't bind any other court to come to the same decision
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sanchez wrote:
does anyone have any advice as to what I should be looking for that will be collectible/rare/hold value in terms of age, manufacturer, caliber, firearm type etc????


Many books have been written on the subject. My advice would be to go to some auctions and see what takes your fancy. The definition of an antique in US law is anything pre-1898, which is a different definition than the HO uses.
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carrot Cruncher wrote:
it wouldn't bind any other court to come to the same decision


No it wouldn't, but there's no reason you couldn't mention it, and courts do look at what other courts have done. Mick's case is so complicated though you'd need a good barrister to be able to convey it to the court.
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sanchez



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I'll do some research and hopefully be able to ship a few back to the UK - don't tell the wife!

I'll be playing safe though as I hope the words 'test case' and 'my life' are never co-joined..... Confused
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