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NRA PRESS RELEASE 15 APR - COMPETENCY CERTIFICATE COMES....
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Richard Loweth



Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:13 pm    Post subject: NRA PRESS RELEASE 15 APR - COMPETENCY CERTIFICATE COMES.... Reply with quote

I mentioned this in a post previous. This is the latest NRA Press Release on this matter. I predict that many will simply now leave the sport...it can be reached either by following the link below to link to the NRA Website

http://psa.bizhosting.com/whats_new.html

Or his is the release from the NRA:

Quote:
NRA Press Release
NRA/MoD agreement for civilian use of MoD ranges by clubs affiliated to
the NRA
The NRA is pleased to announce that it has successfully completed a series of negotiations with the
MoD and the resulting agreement will allow the continued use of MoD ranges by civilian shooters
who are members of the NRA or of NRA affiliated clubs.
Whilst agreement ‘in principle’ was achieved some weeks ago, the MoD placed a number of
requirements upon the NRA and its affiliated clubs if it was to accept the continued use of its ranges
by civilians. It has taken some time to finalise the precise nature of these requirements and the
finalised document has had to be approved by a number of MoD committees. It was important that
publication of the details of the agreement waited until the finalised document had been agreed at
all levels on both sides.
The key changes for NRA members and members of affiliated clubs are:
• There will be a standardised training scheme for all new shooters with clubs having to use
the NRA Probationary Course structure or have their own scheme approved by the NRA.
• All shooters will be required to have an annually renewed certificate, signed by their club
Chairman, confirming that they are safe and competent to use the relevant type of firearm.
This certificate will have to be available for inspection when shooting on an MoD range.
• Both the NRA and affiliated clubs will have to maintain sufficient records to show that these
procedures have been carried out, and periodic audits will be required.
• Clubs will need to sign an agreement stating that they accept these requirements, they will
take part in any investigation following an incident and they will require their members to
assist fully in such investigation.
The timetable for implementation of these changes requires that the new probationary training
procedures be in use by the 1st July 2008 and that the annual certification process must be fully
implemented by the 1st January 2009.
Recognising that these are new requirements for clubs, the NRA is preparing a range of
documentation to help them through the process. The NRA Probationary Course has been updated
and will be available to clubs from the 1st May 2008. For the annual certification process, club
Chairmen will be provided with guidance on certification of shooters and documentation to carry out
this process.
Finally, the limit on use of firearms using ammunition with a muzzle energy greater than 4,500
Joules remains in place, but from the 1st May 2008, the introduction of specific procedures will allow
this limit to be exceeded. By that time a sufficient number of RCOs will have been trained in the
correct procedures and approved zeroing targets will have been distributed.
Whilst recognising that shooters have been concerned about the possible curtailment of their
access to MoD ranges, these have been lengthy negotiations and it has been important to ensure
that information was not released in ‘draft’ form which may have needed subsequent updating. With
the conclusion of the agreement, information packs will be sent to club Chairmen as soon as
possible and these will include full copies of the agreement along with supporting documentation to
help clubs to understand and implement the changes. This information will also be posted on the
NRA website.
Issued by the muzzle energy working group on behalf of the Council
14th April 2008
[/url][/quote]
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like another pointless piece of paperwork, because it says "all new shooters". So basically, you do your club probation and you get a piece of paperwork from the NRA saying you're safe. Current shooters apparently get it without doing the training. You renew it every year, via your club or the NRA (if that's your club).

I don't think that's a big deal, frankly, but it does sound a bit pointless.

Standardised membership cards for gun clubs with a statement on the back might be a simpler way of doing it. Although one would think that if you have an FAC for a fullbore rifle that might just indicate that you had completed a probationary course on how to use it safely...

I have to say one of my pet peeves has always been this annual renewal nonsense, are gun clubs so worried they're going to go under that they have to renew memberships every year? Very few gun clubs in my experience have multiple year memberships.

The NRA always goes on about how they are cutting corners to save money, hey here's an idea - MULTIPLE YEAR MEMBERSHIPS, then you wouldn't have to send out new membership cards, endless letters and reminders, etc. every year!
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NeilMac



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
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Location: UK Midlands

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Richard.
Like everything else from the NRA I hear it second hand first....
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JonathanL
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Joined: 02 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree with Steve that this is just another pointless piece of paper that is doing nothing that isn't already achieved by the bits of paper we already have - FAC, membership card, etc.

It dosen't look too onerous, just pointless. The part that I strongly object to though is the fact that this in some way involves the NRA. Presumably on the money making front? I'm not an NRA member and have no intention of becoming one. Over the 20+ years I've been shooting the NRA has done precisely sod-all of benefit to my shooting and shooting in general, as far as I can see. In 1987 it even appeared to be going out of it's way to help get semi-auto rifles banned.

All this is just another step towards killing shooting because I can see a time in the not to distant future when we won't be allowed anywhere near MOD ranges.

We need more private ranges and we need them now!
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But presumably you're a member of an NRA-affiliated club, and the club has to pay NRA membership fees.

You can just sit and read between the lines here and see that these MoD people haven't got the faintest clue how the licensing system for rifles works, because they don't appear to realise just how much hassle you have to merely get the thing. Another piece of paperwork saying you've gone through all that hassle achieves nothing.
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JonathanL
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cybershooters wrote:
But presumably you're a member of an NRA-affiliated club, and the club has to pay NRA membership fees.

You can just sit and read between the lines here and see that these MoD people haven't got the faintest clue how the licensing system for rifles works, because they don't appear to realise just how much hassle you have to merely get the thing. Another piece of paperwork saying you've gone through all that hassle achieves nothing.


My principal club listed on my FAC is NSRA affiliated, not NRA. They have specifically chosen not to affiliate to the NRA basically for the reasons I've given. Ie; the NRA are useless and do nowt productave for shooting. Even if I was a member of an NRA affiliated club it would be through absolute necessity rather than choice.

If this scheme is going to operate along the lines that I have to involve the NRA to get permission to shoot then I'm going to see how I can go about challenging it as I don't feel that the use of my privately owned and lawfuylly acquired property should be subject to the dictats of an unelected, self appointed body that has it's own interests at heart rather than mine.

If the NRA wants all this power to run shooting and have the monopoly on saying who gets to use Government ranges then it should be established as a statutory body for such by Parliament and should operate to rules approved by Parliament with statutory procedures in place to deal with greivances.

J.
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the NSRA any better? Last I heard they were buried in a fraud. And they're supposed to be merging with the NRA anyway.

Quote:
If the NRA wants all this power to run shooting and have the monopoly on saying who gets to use Government ranges then it should be established as a statutory body for such by Parliament and should operate to rules approved by Parliament with statutory procedures in place to deal with greivances.


Shush. You'll give them ideas. They did that in France and it ended up with the FFTir saying to the Minister of Sport that IPSC isn't a sport, so the ISSF shooters could remain in the majority on the board of the FFTir.

So now in France, if you practice IPSC, it doesn't count as a club visit towards maintaining your licence. You have to show up and do bullseye as well.
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Alex Hamilton



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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Location: Berkshire

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cybershooters wrote:
Although one would think that if you have an FAC for a fullbore rifle that might just indicate that you had completed a probationary course on how to use it safely...


Unfortunately, Steve, the FAC application/renewal forms do not ask if one has completed any kind of marksmanship training, so provided one has good reason like the intention to take up target shooting, one gets FAC without ever firing a single shot.

I have shot alongside several guys that spent all their life shooting smallbore prone at 20yds and then bought a 7.62NATO rifle, complete with muzzle brake, bipod and telescopic sight and brought it to Stickledown to "see where it goes" at 1000yds. One of these recently shared a firing point with me and he fired a box of 20 rounds and just managed to hit the target with the last one!!!

But Richard Loweth may have a point about the charges. Although there is no mention of any fee in the NRA blurb to date, I am wondering myself how long it will be before this new source of potential income is discovered. We would all agree that the exercise may be pointless as the club chaimen proceed to certify everyone, even those that cannot hit a barn door at 10 paces. It is that kind of attitude that brought us here in the first place. And when one of these "certified marksmen" puts a shot over the top a few times, certification by clubs might be withdrawn and a fee charged by the NRA in a total monopoly situation.

Alex
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cybershooters
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex Hamilton wrote:
Unfortunately, Steve, the FAC application/renewal forms do not ask if one has completed any kind of marksmanship training, so provided one has good reason like the intention to take up target shooting, one gets FAC without ever firing a single shot.


To get an FAC for target shooting, you have to be a full member of a Home Office approved club, and to be a full member, you have to complete a probationary period as outlined in the club approval guidelines. Been the case since 1997 and since 1989 it was pretty much that without the requirement to be a club member. (Section 15 of the 1988 Act as amended by section 45 of the 1997 Act.)

I find it very hard to believe any police force would grant authority for a fullbore rifle to someone who was only a member of a smallbore club and only had authority for .22s without some indication they had a "good reason" for it, which would mean access to an appropriate range to use it on. Certainly the guidance indicates the police are supposed to do that.

Like I said, I just don't think the MoD really have any clue at all about what the current requirements are.
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BobHarget



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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To get a certificate to shoot on a MOD range you have to be assessed for each type of firearm you want to use. The certificates are provided free for declared members of your club (based on the annual capitation fee to the NRA) any additional certificates will be £3.00 each.
The club chairman is the only person authorised to sign the certificates and they must be renewed annually. These certificates must be available for random checks by MOD/NRA personnel (or authorised representatives). The chairman of each club is responsible for keeping records for inspection.
Probationary members must complete a course approved by the NRA. A club can run its own system as long as the NRA gives approval, or they can opt to use the NRA course @ £5.00 per head. The NRA course Assessor kit costs £10.00.
Firearms generating muzzle energy in excess of 4500 joules must be zeroed at 200 yds/m EACH time you visit the range, on targets supplied by the NRA, a record kept of the score and the target used must be kept for 12 months by the club chairman.
This all comes about because the Crown lost its immunity to prosecution under the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007.
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Alex Hamilton



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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobHarget wrote:
This all comes about because the Crown lost its immunity to prosecution under the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007.


So, what was all that rubbish about bullets being found well outside danger areas? Was that meant to prepare us for Competence Certification?

This is likely to prove a serious restriction on High Energy ammunition and the club chairmen might be difficult to find in view of the added liability.

However, the Crown should not enjoy any immunities that the rest of us do not enjoy, so it is a step in the right direction even though it creates additional hassle for some.
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Alex Hamilton



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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cybershooters wrote:

To get an FAC for target shooting, you have to be a full member of a Home Office approved club, and to be a full member, you have to complete a probationary period as outlined in the club approval guidelines. Been the case since 1997 and since 1989 it was pretty much that without the requirement to be a club member. (Section 15 of the 1988 Act as amended by section 45 of the 1997 Act.)

I find it very hard to believe any police force would grant authority for a fullbore rifle to someone who was only a member of a smallbore club and only had authority for .22s without some indication they had a "good reason" for it, which would mean access to an appropriate range to use it on. Certainly the guidance indicates the police are supposed to do that.


Well, my primary club is a former pistol club and the members now shoot smallbore self-loaders like 10/22 and underlever fullbore gallery rifles on an indoor 25 metre range. Several have applied and got slots to buy fullbore rifles to shoot competitively at Bisley. Everybody has "access" to Bisley and even the members of non-affiliated clubs can enter one of NRA run open competitions.

It is not the case that these people are bad shots, but a case that they do not know the elevation for various distances and shooting gallery rifles standing at 25 metres is hardly a qualification to shoot 7.62NATO at 1000yds.

To get enough fullbore shooting I am a member of 3 clubs and 2 Associations. The clubs cater for a mixture of disciplines and they all have "Fullbore Rifle" sections. The level of shooting skills varies from quite good to pretty awful. I have not joined any of the clubs as a raw probationer, but if any offer training in fullbore rifle shooting, it is very low key that I must have missed it. No one shoots High Energy ammunition, so my guess is that the chairmen will certify their members and nothing will have changed.

Let's hope that this might bring some improvements, but it looks just like another inconvenience.

Alex
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andrew375



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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex Hamilton wrote:


So, what was all that rubbish about bullets being found well outside danger areas? Was that meant to prepare us for Competence Certification?



I questioned Glyn Alger (may be misspelt)about this at a regional meeting, which only five clubs bothered to send delegates to out of at least six counties!

Apparently some of the match rifle lads were playing with turned ultra high b.c. bullets to try to get their 7.62 rifles to do something that 7.62 NATO was never designed to do. Some of these bullets were picked up by MOD personnel well outside the danger area and traced back. I asked if any action had been taken against the miscreants as they had not only used ammunition that exceeded the range safety template but did so knowingly. I was not surprised that the answer was that no action was taken, but all of us who do respect the range limitations will have to be punished to deflect responsibility away from members of the bisley rifle club.
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Lies, Damn Lies and the NRA

Muzzle Energy


There is a very current rumour going around that the NRA rather than protect the interest of shooters was the originator of the Muzzle Energy problem. This is of course a complete fallacy of a perverse mind.

The history of this event was that in late October 2007 it was reported that shooting was being restricted at Altcar to 3800J. It was found by the NRA after investigation that this was a general intention, to be introduced by the MoD on all military ranges. Effectively most civilian shooting would have had to stop.

After much negotiation with the military the Muzzle Energy limit was raised to 4500J keeping the majority of those using military ranges shooting.

The NRA pointed out that this caused problems for some shooters who shot F Class, Match Rifle, Sporting Rifle and other disciplines. As a result the special zeroing conditions were brought into place, keeping 100% of shooters shooting.

To meet general safety conditions on their ranges the MoD also required that every individual using their ranges was either certificated as safe and competent or they had recently undertaken a ‘national standard’ course, the NRA Probationary Course. This was not something invented by the NRA this was designed to put similar safeguards in place for civilians using MoD ranges as those the military have to meet themselves.

The NRA were duty bound to take on this challenge in short timescales to ensure all shooters could continue to shoot.

The NRA recognises that the new conditions are onerous but they are necessary to meet military expectations to use their ranges. We also recognise that due to necessary haste we will not have got everything right first time but this will be an evolving process.

The NRA did not invite this problem but has had to deal with it. In doing so the Association has had to negotiate, spend a great deal of effort writing and re-writing requirements to the specification of the military, construct course material specifically to be delivered at club level, increase its administrative and staff costs. At present estimates this is going to cost the NRA £150k in the first year, none of which has been passed onto the clubs or individuals.

I only have this question to ask of those that came up with this idea. ‘If we were responsible for the Muzzle Energy problem, would we really have wanted to take on all the work, frustration, criticism and cost, for no benefit to us?

In the words of the senior military negotiator, “If shooters don’t want to comply they don’t shoot on an MoD range”.

Glynn Alger

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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex Hamilton wrote:
It is not the case that these people are bad shots, but a case that they do not know the elevation for various distances and shooting gallery rifles standing at 25 metres is hardly a qualification to shoot 7.62NATO at 1000yds.


From the sounds of it, this certificate won't really address that, because it sounds as though established shooters will pretty much get one automatically going by the press release. The onus seems to be on club chairmen by the looks of it. Who will love that liability I'm sure.
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